tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19785125.post114386564873871374..comments2024-01-03T07:56:32.311-05:00Comments on quaker oats live: God & human sufferingAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07488876505679035140noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19785125.post-1144357808013578922006-04-06T17:10:00.000-04:002006-04-06T17:10:00.000-04:00Hmmm…I seem to be continually drawn back to relati...Hmmm…I seem to be continually drawn back to relationship. The Apostle Paul says, “I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the sharing (NIV stays “fellowship”) of his sufferings by becoming like him in his death…” Like you, I don’t want to seek suffering, but seek Jesus…and look what I get. Again Paul in Colossians, “I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of the body, that is, the church.” Christ’s afflictions aren’t complete? I can share in those afflictions (suffering)? Do I want to share in them? Do I want to know Christ. This is hard stuff for me.<BR/><BR/>I agree, there are times when listening prayer, centering prayer is suffering…a desert experience. Not always, but sometimes. I go there because I’m called. <BR/><BR/>PJBPaulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09429320213684430282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19785125.post-1144110478337083082006-04-03T20:27:00.000-04:002006-04-03T20:27:00.000-04:00I love this post, really got me thinking, I have b...I love this post, really got me thinking, I have been really digging into the whole concept recently, I am reading "the kingdom of God is within you" by L Tolstoy, he touches on a lot of quaker ideas and quotes some quakers aswell, for deffinately not something to go into lightly as i guess making a choice to stand against something can cost you your life (tom fox) but I reckon your right, its so important to understand, thanks for another perspective to get me thinking some more!janamillshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11405035130114881555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19785125.post-1144104854870149322006-04-03T18:54:00.000-04:002006-04-03T18:54:00.000-04:00Hi Cherice,If ever there was teaching which could ...Hi Cherice,<BR/>If ever there was teaching which could cause an ordinary person to suffer it's in the Sermon on the Mount. It's so extreme and uncompromising, and so different from the way of the world. To provide for and feed others and work on the basis of love, rather than personal economic necessity or greed? I can hear the economic overlords of our time saying 'Get back to work, slaves!'. Once family units did this, but now even parents have to be forced by laws to provide for their kids when they can't love their spouses any more. So what about working for strangers? So extreme, so uncompromising, it hurts.<BR/>PeterAndersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13048606424107457116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19785125.post-1144098506577317702006-04-03T17:08:00.000-04:002006-04-03T17:08:00.000-04:00Hi Cherice (and Liz 'n' all...)What you wrote here...Hi Cherice (and Liz 'n' all...)<BR/><BR/>What you wrote here reminded me of Oliver Kisaka's statement at WGYF that we can (to paraphrase as I can't remember it exactly..!) be popular with god or with our fellow humans but not both - ie following god's leadings truthfully will make us unpopular but that it is more important to follow god.<BR/><BR/>Maybe this fits in with what David was saying about the image Quakerism has? But surely how it got it in the first place was because people stood up for what they believed, were prepared if necessary to go to gaol or die for it, they put the cat amongst the pigeons (in a non-violent respectful to pigeons manner of course!) and were prepared to face the consequences. I'm sure all of these made them most unpopular at the time yet history recognises them. <BR/><BR/>Are we by our inaction and unwillingness to collectively put ourselves on the line jeapodising the ongoing good name that we are trying to protect?<BR/><BR/>Keep posting and getting us thinking, it's like doing your course by proxy! =)<BR/><BR/>love & light<BR/>AnnaAnna Dunfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12362143051124854821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19785125.post-1144085425058283322006-04-03T13:30:00.000-04:002006-04-03T13:30:00.000-04:00Cherice,I'm surprised you didn't mention the most ...Cherice,<BR/><BR/>I'm surprised you didn't mention the most recent example of a Quaker suffering for his faith: Tom Fox. Clearly, what happened to him was a result of his religious witness. And I also thought of another example, the Friday night speaker at New York Yearly Meeting Spring Sessions this past weekend, Nadine Wood. She has made a number of trips to Aceh in Indonesia, including times when it was still a war zone and her visit was accompanied by the sound of automatic weapons fire. I'm not sure how much she suffered--there was a fair amount of physical discomfort, but it doesn't sound like she was ever physically assualted, or had a gun stuck in her face--but it certainly sounds like she was at risk.<BR/><BR/>So Quakers can and do suffer for their witness. That makes it sound like, if Quakers today don't suffer, it's because we aren't living our witness out faithfully (and I fully include myself in that category). I've thought a bit about this in connection with the peace testimony. When I've looked into the history of the peace testimony, it's clear that some of the major ways in which Quakers used to witness against the peace testimony no longer apply. In particular, when there is no required military service, you can't make a point of avoiding it. But that doesn't mean that opportunities for witness don't exist. For example, Friends could (and some do) reject paying taxes to fund war. Why don't we? Probably there are plenty of Quakers who think that's not required of them, but I'll bet there are plenty of other Quakers who are inclined in that direction but are held back by concern of consequences--which is not to dismiss those concerns. For example, someone with a spouse and children really does have obligations that a single Friend does not. But still, that sort of witness is hard, which probably explains at least part of why it's not done.<BR/><BR/>It's probably so obvious I don't even need to say it, but there are still lots of ways to witness, it seems to me. If I just think about the Sermon on the Mount, I can think of innumerable ways in which it challenges how I live my life. Not only specific things, like attitudes towards material possessions, but even the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, that total faith in God and devotion to the Kingdom. <I>I'm</I> not doing that, for sure.<BR/><BR/>The funny thing is, I think while faithful witness runs the risk of increasing <I>physical</I> suffering, it almost seems to me like it reduces other kinds of suffering. Nadine, the NYYM speaker this past weekend, clearly felt a freedom and joy in service. In that sense, her emotional or existential suffering was reduced, even as she put herself at increased risk. She, at least, seemed to think it was a trade worth making.<BR/><BR/>By the way, it's funny I came across your post. When I read it, in particular the bit about Americans avoiding suffering, it reminded me of something. I realized it was the piece by the NY Times religion writer on Saturday. He wrote about a George Rouault exhibit in New York, and in the article he quotes someone who also points out that Americans avoid suffering, even though it seems pretty clearly to be part of the Christian message. Interesting coincidence, or not.<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Korfhagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08483910268144751116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19785125.post-1143908599734744452006-04-01T11:23:00.000-05:002006-04-01T11:23:00.000-05:00I really liked your post about suffering! I don't ...I really liked your post about suffering! I don't have anything deep to say about it (I just woke up...) but I think another important aspect is after a stage of suffering giving thanks to God to being the constant companion through everything (think Footprints in the Sand). When a period of so called suffering is over, I am more joyful in God and open my eyes and realize all the good that is around me--everything seems to be more vibrant and alive! And I am more willing to help others in this stage!Liz in the Misthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535396346855135995noreply@blogger.com